Japan (and probably others) - Ability to enter English language shop names

[peternewman]

Use case Allow languages which might not exist on street signs to be entered for shop names.

See for example: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Japan https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/JA:Naming_sample#amenity=cafe And https://nsi.guide/index.html?t=brands&k=amenity&v=cafe#starbucks-0cf217

There are lots of places which only seem to display an English as opposed to a Latin transliteration (although I'm not 100% sure how you'd identify which if they didn't include a word like Cafe.

I've erroneously added a few as ja-Latn as I wasn't any the wiser, but it doesn't seem possible to name them correctly via SC.

Proposed Solution I suspect this probably needs an additional file on top of https://github.com/streetcomplete/countrymetadata/blob/master/data/additionalStreetsignLanguages.yml which allows languages which might not exist on street signs to be entered for shop names.

[peternewman]

As per https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Multilingual_names#Japan this should probably apply for things that aren't shops too (e.g. train stations, paths etc), although I'm not sure there are many of those we can currently name in SC apart from roads (which it probably doesn't apply to).

[rhhsm]

I think what you want to say is that when adding names to Japanese PoI, in addition to name and name:ja-Latn, SC should offer the possibility to add name:en (and name:ja-Hira, probably?)? That's a matter of adding it to the list at https://github.com/streetcomplete/countrymetadata/blob/master/data/additionalStreetsignLanguages.yml isn't it? That should not be difficult, I suppose: a few other countries already have multiple additional name fields. I remember Japanese stations (Tokyo subway, JR stations, ...) usually have a name sign with the name in Japanese Kanji (name), hiragana (name:ja-Hira) and transliteration to latin (name:ja-Latn) so SC should allow at least those 3 to be added.

[peternewman]

I think what you want to say is that when adding names to Japanese PoI, in addition to name and name:ja-Latn, SC should offer the possibility to add name:en (and name:ja-Hira, probably?)? That's a matter of adding it to the list at https://github.com/streetcomplete/countrymetadata/blob/master/data/additionalStreetsignLanguages.yml isn't it?

As mentioned in my proposed solution, I'd avoided just doing a PR to add it to additionalStreetsignLanguages.yml as I'm not sure it really exists on street signs, just on other signage which feels like it's probably less "official" than street signs.

That should not be difficult, I suppose: a few other countries already have multiple additional name fields. I remember Japanese stations (Tokyo subway, JR stations, ...) usually have a name sign with the name in Japanese Kanji (name), hiragana (name:ja-Hira) and transliteration to latin (name:ja-Latn) so SC should allow at least those 3 to be added.

I must admit I'd forgotten/not considered station names. I guess the question is still do they count as street signs or not?

I'm not sure hiragana is allowed at all currently...

[westnordost]

So I think en should just be added to any country in additionalStreetsignLanguages whose main language does not use latin script. I.e. including Japan.

The reasoning is that in countries where street signs sometimes include transliterations of the original name (name:ja-Latn in this case), it is always possible that the name is only partly transliterated. E.g. Kōsoku Dōro Expressway instead of Shuto Kōsoku Dōro, in which case name:en is actually the better tag.

[westnordost]

Uhm, on the other hand, there is also int_name which in the example stated seems to be more fitting.

I don't really want to add both "International name" and "English name" to the list of selectable languages for all countries whose official language does not use the latin script because it would confuse users which they should choose. On the other hand, I can clearly imagine, especially with shops, that a shop has an English name, because it is fashionable.

Suggestions?

[mnalis]

On the other hand, I can clearly imagine, especially with shops, that a shop has an English name, because it is fashionable.

Yeah. For streets etc. I'd prefer int_name, but for shops, as stated name:en might actually be better choice (more popular in any case: e.g. 261k vs. 2k in Asia)

[peternewman]

So I think en should just be added to any country in additionalStreetsignLanguages whose main language does not use latin script. I.e. including Japan.

My gut feeling is we should differentiate street sign from shop languages if there are countries where that's the case, I know it's a little bit more code, but it would stop people picking the wrong options. Also as @mnalis mentioned it might allow better options. Although I was assuming the shop option would end up as the superset of street signs and shop names, rather than duplicating the lists, which would leave both int_name and name:en in the list.

Although I see in the case of Japan the data just appears to be wrong, as they do have English on some street signs: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shuto_Expressway#/media/File:Shuto_expressway_harumi_jct.jpg

[thany]

There is a difference between romanised (ja-Latn) and actually English (en) names. I'm not sure that this is understood correctly here.

The former are Japanese words, demanding Japanese pronounciation, but just happen to be written in a script that about half the modern world uses. The latter are translated rather than transliterated.

Example:

ja - 函館駅前 ja-Hira - はこだてえきまえ ja-Latn - Hakodate-ekimae en - Hakodate Station Front

The use cases are different, too. The romanised Japanese names can be useful for communication with other Japanese people, so that they know what you're talking about. The actually English version can be useful for yourself, so you get an idea of what that station name means and/or where it might be. Then hiragana version is mostly used by Japanese children who aren't fully comfortable with kanji just yet.

Oh and this goes for names of other POI's as well, whether it's bus stations or confectionary shops 😀

[nydragon]

The same problem exists in South Korea, Many stores have English names, transit stations often also have an English name. Currently StreetComplete only offers ko and ko-Latn.

(edit) And as per the wiki, name:en is part of the naming convention in Korea