ck2plus
Change Cultural Setup Europe
Split Latin(Gallo-Romance):
- Gallo-Romance (French, Norman, Arpitan)
- Occitano-Romance (Occitan, Catalan)
- Catalan is moved to the new group from Iberian. Reasoning: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occitano-Romance_languages (Quote: "The issue at debate is as political as it is linguistic because the division into Gallo-Romance and Ibero-Romance languages stems from the current nation states of France and Spain and so is based more on territorial criteria than historic and linguistic criteria.") https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Romance-lg-classification-en.svg
But because they have somewhat cultural ties with their old groups, Catalan later gets a small opinion bonus towards Iberian, and Occitan a small opinion bonus towards Gallo-Romance.
Hmm @daniloy should we maybe add one or two more cultures to Iberian? With the loss of Catalan it's kinda empty. And there would be options: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ab/Linguistic_map_Southwestern_Europe-en.gif
(Leonese & Aragonese, to be precise)
Finno-Ugric should have Samodeic split off (as explained in the other issue). Hungarian can actually be a non-singular culture group.
Finno-Ugric
- Mari (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_people)
- Mansi#future (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mansi_people)
Magyar
- Székely (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sz%C3%A9kelys)
Legend: "+" denotes existing Plus culture "*" denotes suggested new culture "?" denotes an undecided candidacy "->" denotes a renaming suggestion "[ ]" denotes an alternate name for clarification, which need not be changed to "#future" denotes cultures planned for inclusion after the map transition, when more parts of the map are visible
I'd keep both suggested cultures here, that is Székely and Mari. The Mansi would be dropped (they were not meant to be immediately added anyway).
So first, could we add Galician to northwest Iberia? And second, would it be possible to create events in the game to cause a split between Galician and Portuguese (around the 12th century)?
So first, could we add Galician to northwest Iberia? And second, would it be possible to create events in the game to cause a split between Galician and Portuguese (around the 12th century)?
It seems to diverge in the late 14th century a, bit too late for us.
It seems to diverge in the late 14th century a, bit too late for us.
Hmm, from my reading it seems like Portuguese and Galician cultures diverged starting around the 12th century with the political separation of Portugal and Galicia, and by 1290 Portuguese was viewed as its own language, with the founding of the first Portuguese university.
I also think it might make sense to simply rename Portuguese, as it wasn't even known as Portuguese for a very long time, and Galician makes more sense as a name given its origin in Galicia (Portugal didn't exist as a political entity until the 12th century).
Sounds like a good idea to me, but we might want to leave Portuguese in and just add Gallician as the culture for that area until later in the game (maybe using an event for the split?). Renaming a culture is a bit of a pain when it comes to testing and the like. But I'll likewise wait for @LordPeter s input.
Besides the ongoing discussion of the Galician topic, it looks like all the changes mentioned in this issue have been implemented.
What other changes, if any, would we be looking to make for European cultures?
I'm surprisingly skeptical about the Galician/Portuguese split, considering the number of cultures I have and wanted to split. Still, we already have added 2 new cultures in the Iberian area, so that's that. Wikipedia at least is a bit vague on the whole thing, especially when the split occurred. But in the end, I am not against adding Galician and splitting it from Portuguese (as schwarherz said renaming is problematic), and 1290 (Port. university) or 1296 (adoption by Port. Royal Chancellary) sound reasonable as dates. So if you want, make it so.
Also agree on the Griko thing, though that could be just in localisation.
I don't think there are any more changes planned for Europe (apart from Russian in the east, if that hasn't been done yet).
Would it make more sense to have Portuguese split off from Galician? Given that the culture started in Galicia (geographically and politically), and Portugal didn't exist as a political entity until much later.
It would make sense to start with Galician. And right, I thought about it wrong: We can just put Galician on the map, and have Portuguese develop off of it. Was kinda stuck thinking that we would have to rename Portuguese for some reason (which would be bad because of the large mismatch between code and localisation).
But yeah, I would also prefer it that way then.